Jul 11 2007
This again?
Yup. This again. I’m writing the promised “follow-up” post to this. I was amazed by the response I got, and I appreciate all of the comments. It’s a hot topic, and it seems like everyone has strong opinions and feelings on the subject. Hubby and I sat down and read all of the responses together–we laughed at some of your answers, we were intrigued by some of your answers, and we were impressed by all of your answers. We learned a lot–not just about ourselves but about how other people’s relationships work!
I do, however, need to explain that Hubby and I were not fighting over this. We weren’t even debating. Some of you said that you were siding with me, or that you were siding with Hubby. Well, there were no sides. I should have made this more clear. There were no hurt feelings. This is important, because I am of the very strong opinion that if there were hurt feelings, it doesn’t matter what the possible explanation is, it has to stop. Because it’s not okay to hurt the person you love.
Many of you responded by saying that women have had to go through a lot–things that men don’t have to go through–salaries, menstruation,the way we give birth, and the objectification of women and the double standards that we’ve been subjected to throughout history–so that means that we can pretty much say whatever we want to say. I know that most of you who said things like that were kidding, but let’s address it anyway:
Women do go through a lot. I have been through everything listed above, just like many of you have. But how is this Hubby’s fault? He is not the kind of man who does these things. When I have gone through things like that (from childbirth to rotten bosses), Hubby has always been my champion. He supports me, sustains me. Saying hurtful things to my sweet, respectful, loving husband in order to get back at all of mankind and whoever designed my body seems, well, completely and totally unfair.
But let’s say it was his fault. So let’s say I blame him. I get even. He says hurtful things, so I say hurtful things. Wow. What a happy marriage/life that makes for. Surely there’s a higher road…
And, taking that even further, how does MY treating someone badly make up for having been treated badly? I mean, if someone burns my house down, do I get to go burn a house down too? Some would say, yes, and that it evens the playing field. I say, it makes you BOTH arsonists, and you’ll BOTH go to jail. You’ve sold your liberty in order to get even, and now you’re every bit as lousy of a person as the person who wronged you was.
So, I guess that brings us to an important word: the word “hurtful.” As I’ve said, it’s never okay for me to say something hurtful, and it’s never okay for him to say something hurtful to me. (Of course, from time to time we DO say hurtful things–generally on accident–and they need to be worked out.)
So I guess the big “double standard” question was really, WHY is it hurtful if a man says that and NOT hurtful if a woman does? (And, of course, this is a huge generalization, because I suspect that very often women DO hurt their men with these very things without realizing how stupid they’re being.)
Carla brought up the word “lust” and I think it’s an important one. If I say that a guy’s good looking, there’s no lust involved. I wouldn’t say it if there were–I’d be way too uncomfortable. But, in our case, if Hubby were to say that someone is “hot” there would be a definite sexual undertone. Lust. Objectification. And that’s just not a line that we’re going to cross around here.
Crossing that sexual line is where, in our house, it would become hurtful. Obviously women are VERY capable of lust too, but in general, if we say a guy’s good looking, there’s no lust there. It’s just simply a statement about a guy being good looking. We’re not all hot and bothered. (If you are, again, I think a line’s been crossed.) Since men seem to get to that “hot and bothered” point a little more… quickly… easily, and so for them to say, “oooh, she’s hot,” the wife gets the immediate impression that the “hot and bothered” line has already been crossed.
Again, generalizations, generalizations. Women are very capable of lust. Men are capable of acknowledging someone’s beauty without it being lust. Still, because of history and society, we tend to think that a man is a pig and a woman is an innocent observer. Fair? Perhaps not. But true.
The important thing here is that Hubby knows me. He knows that if I say that a guy’s hot, I’m not saying it because I’m… um… aroused.
Many of you have said that in your relationships, you’re both okay with the drooling and the flirting and the… well… the lusting. This boggles my brain. You say that it’s because of a certain level of trust in your relationship. This boggles my brain even more. I don’t want to say too much, because I don’t want to say that you’re “wrong” and that you don’t really feel the way you claim to feel. Suffice it to say, I don’t understand it. There’s not one single soul on this planet that I trust more than I trust my husband. There’s not one single soul I feel (or have ever felt) closer to. Even so, or perhaps because, it would HURT me if he were to be drooling over anyone, watching porn, or even flirting at work. He’s a good man, he has self control. I value his self control. I’m not saying that everyone who allows himself to lust after someone else is going to become unfaithful. But I AM saying that someone who doesn’t allow himself to fall prey to lust will NEVER be unfaithful. (That’s not to say that a marriage won’t disintegrate for other reasons, but it won’t disintegrate for THAT reason.) Why skirt the line? Why drive close to the edge of the cliff and hope not to fall off? I prefer to drive far from the cliff, so that falling off isn’t an issue. Anyway, point is, the mutual drooling is something I just. don’t. get.
I guess the important question is, again, am I being hurtful? Or, am I being hurt? Really, dig deep in your soul and find out. Because that’s what matters.
Obviously, if he says that someone’s pretty, or attractive, or whatever, that’s different. Of course he’s going to notice if a woman’s beautiful! His eyes work. And I like it when he says it. I can also see when a woman’s beautiful! I know that I’m not about to sleep with her, nor is he. It’s just, again, when it become sexual or objectifying that it becomes hurtful.
Um, I think I’m saying the same thing over and over again, so I guess I’ll stop. hahaha. Also, for the record, I do not claim to be any sort of expert in this arena! I’m just stating my own observations!
I’m very interested to see what you all have to say. So, have at it, bloodhounds. Rip me to shreds. 
(Oh, and remember the “PG” rule, okay?)
br>
I know you’ve braced yourself to be ripped to shreds, but alas, you’ll have to wait for another commenter, because I agree with you 100%. When you bring it down to the personal, how does this affect me?, aspect of things, what matters is if you’re hurting or being hurt. I like the simplicity of that. =)
I do not at all like it when my boyfriend has made reference to lusting after a woman. He only did this once. My reaction let him know that it was unwise. Yes, she was a celebrity. Men think they are safely “just being men” when they make those comments. He is not the wandering kind and I am not the insecure kind. But I still disliked it A LOT.
However, one time I said I rented a movie with Salma Hayek in it because I kinda have the hots for her. He said, “Shouldn’t that be the other way around?” I said, “She should have the hots for me?” He said, “NO, I should have the hots for her.” I said, “Well you can if you want and if you do, then we have that in common!” So it was a playful conversation. I like that kind.
But yeah. Regardless of the topic, discerning whether or not it will be hurtful is the key.
(That is what we were talking about, right? I got a little confused.)
One point–aside from being hurtful, lusting for someone other than your husband or wife is Biblically wrong. Not only does it demean the precious sexual relationship between a man and a wife, it puts the trust and safety of the relationship in a precarious spot.
Go ahead, rip me to shreds next.
After I commented the first time, I went back and re-read it and realized, “…what the crap was I trying to say here?”. I don’t know if my response even made sense, but I think a small paragraph you wrote sums it up perfectly - “Obviously, if he says that someone’s pretty, or attractive, or whatever, that’s different. Of course he’s going to notice if a woman’s beautiful! His eyes work. And I like it when he says it. I can also see when a woman’s beautiful! I know that I’m not about to sleep with her, nor is he. It’s just, again, when it become sexual or objectifying that it becomes hurtful.” I hope my response didn’t sound like I would be ok with Cody talking about how hot other women are or that I’m ok with flirting and skirting the line. I know a girl who recently left her husband because he constantly compared her to other women and would tell her all these other girls he would rather be married to, that his ‘needs’ could easily be met by someone else. I feel bad for her, this guy is obviously a royal tool and needs to be hit by a bus. I don’t think I’ll be able to really get all my opinions out in this little comment - yet another reason for us to do lunch or dinner soon! Great post, by the way. Loved everything you said!
No need to rip you to shreds because I respect your opinion. It may not completely match mine in all regards but the nice thing about being an adult is that we can disagree and have different opinions and still respect and appreciate one another.
Anyhoo, that said. I do tend to agree with you for the most part. The intent behind the comment /the lust can and would be very hurtful. As I said in my comments as long as hubby comments tastefully on a woman’s beauty I’m fine.
I think intent certainly plays a big part. However, even if my husband was jokingly lustful towards another woman, it would hurt me. I completely admit to my own double standard as I jokingly lust after celebs… I have no intention of ever following thru on my “lust” for said celebs, nor would I ever follow thru and cheat with ANYONE.
I think I said in response to your last post that it has a lot to do with the power dynamic between men and women. Of course, that’s relying on generalizations, like you said, but *generally* speaking I agree that men’s comments about other women tended to be more tinged with sexuality than just pure admiration. I think men and women also generally take comments from members of the opposite sex differently. I would be completely creeped out and feel a tad bit threatened if a man (not my husband) felt it necessary to comment about how hot I was. I have a feeling my husband, in dealing with a similar situation with a woman, would not be intimidated. He would probably laugh and say thanks. That’s where the power dynamic between men and women comes into play.
But, when you’re talking about your spouse saying something about the opposite sex in front of you, I think that comes down to personality and the relationship between the individual couple. Like you, I would be pissed as hell if my husband commented on another woman in a sexual way - with “lust” as you say. But, I agree with your reaction to a simple comment about aesthetics. That doesn’t bother me either. I know couples who are completely different. I don’t get it, but whatever works for them is fine by me.
To address what Erin said, I don’t think the fact that it’s biblically wrong to lust after another who isn’t your spouse is really the issue. I mean, yes, I’m sure it is biblically wrong, but internal lust is something that’s very difficult to control. Whether or not you hurt your spouse’s feelings by giving voice to that lust is something you can control much more readily.
Wow, this is a great discussion already and it’s only just starting!
shall be back later to comment properly…..
You know, I saw a perfect example of this last night and I said to The Man, “THAT’S what I was talking about!” I think it was Extra or something that at the end, a guy came into shot from something putting his shirt on (I’m lost on the context) and said, “Well, next time can I at least keep my shirt on?” and the girl said “haha, we’ll see!” If that had been a WOMAN in that position, they would have had so many complaints they wouldn’t have been able to deal with it.
But I totally get what you’re saying here. Good points. Good Post.
No need to rip Erin to shreds. I get that. My husband and some other dads took the kiddoes swimming. He and the men kept their eyes off the bikini clad mommies that were there and they “bounced their eyes” as they call it. Patrick said it felt good they were all fighting to be better men and examples to their sons.(one daddy has 5 boys!) I am a proud wife indeed.
I didn’t comment on the original post because it took me a few days to figure out why the men/women thing felt different to me. On one hand, yes, I’m against a double standard. On the other, it still felt different, and I couldn’t quite pinpoint it until the other day–and you nailed it, Brillig! The hurt involved is a huge thing, for starters. Plus, men do reach that aroused point much quicker than women do. Culture and history support that to an extent, but it’s also scientific fact. (Like that old metaphor that men are like blow torches and women are like crock pots . . . is that PG enough?) So yeah, a man oggling a woman is going to raise a red flag quicker than a woman admiring a man for his looks, because he has a shorter road to cross that line. I think.
Rip you to shreds? Are you kidding? These are the most intriguing posts I’ve read in a dog’s age! Civil disagreement and discussion is awe.some!
I’m one who doesn’t have a problem with it at all. Not with the whole gamut, from noticing an attractive member of the opposite sex to porn. As I said before, the line for us is outright making-a-spectacle-of-yourself cartoonish drooling. That is disrespectful, and makes the drooler appear immature.
Here’s my question: If a husband is obligated to physically redirect his eyes rather than have the wife notice that he’s noticed an attractive person (much less comment on it)…what’s the point? He’s already noticed, yes? He had to notice, process, and deliberately look away. So then the real underlying issue is that he’s noticed at all, that’s what is offensive. My disagreement with this is that husbands will be out in the world without the wife’s watchful gaze. If her presence is all that is stopping him from noticing, how will he react when he’s free to do so without fear of repercussion? Like a kid in a candy store. Women are the same. Human nature. My husband is a grown man. He is fully capable of controlling his baser impulses, and for me to assume he cannot, and therefore forbid him from doing anything that might make me feel marginalized is as insulting to him as it is indicative that I have deeper issues to address, such as WHY it hurt me so for him to see another person and react to their attractiveness.
To say that if a man comments on the attractiveness of a woman he is exponentially more likely to stray is simply reverse sexism. That train of thought is actually degrading to men, as degrading as the opinion that women are “owed” anything simply because we menstruate and give birth (I do realize most of those comments were made in jest). When men have that attitude – “I work/provide/mow the lawn, therefore I am owed a piping hot dinner/well-behaved children/all the bedroom grooving I desire” – they are sexist. So I agree with Brillig…why should women be given a pass? To me, that detracts from the concept of marriage being a partnership of equals. It goes both ways.
I feel that the underlying issue is that women have so many pressures (from society, the media, other women) nowadays to do it all – perfect house, perfect kids, perfect marriage, perfect body – that they are highly susceptible to insecurity when all of these perfections aren’t met, and they look to the person they love most to soothe those insecurities. I feel free to comment on whomever and whatever I want to, and he has the same freedom, because we are both very secure and have a tremendously happy and trusting marriage – and really, what are those beyond words coming out of someone’s mouth? Do we not look at the intent before making sweeping statements and “rules” for our husbands to live by? My husband and I have discussed many times the fact that, should one of us become authentically attracted to someone else – physically or emotionally – we will talk it out and go through every effort to acknowledge the deficit in our relationship that caused the wandering thoughts. Because if the wandering thoughts are there and are hidden, they really are more likely to be acted upon, simply because it means something between us isn’t right. That’s what leads to adultery – not a comment about how “hot” another person is.
Apologies for the length!
Danger Doll,
I got stuck at the part where you are ok with porn. If I read that correctly. My husband is not under my watchful gaze. I do not forbid anything. He forbids it in himself. He does just fine out there without me. He holds himself to a higher standard. He respects his marriage, his wife and women friends. When women wear revealing clothing he feels obligated to look the other way. Why is that a problem? I love him for it. Otherwise he looks other women IN THE EYES when he talks to them.
Brillig,
I want to thank you for this honest, sincere post. It has been very thought provoking.
This entire topic has been very thought provoking for me. In my case, I had never before thought of it as a double standard but now I am changing my mind, thanks to you. My gnome is smart enough to know that if I saw him drooling or leering at another woman I would smack him upside the head(not really but he knows I would NOT be impressed). As I mentioned on your last post, there have been times I have commented on a man\’s butt I have seen on TV, thinking it was harmless..I have rethought those comments and I have now given myself a smack upside the head. I was only being a smarty pants about it with the gnome…now I see that is was disrespectful to him and our love for each other. I plan to smarten up.
Brill, is your response to commenters broken????????
And take that damned word verification off, damn you!
As I said before, context is everything, in my opinion. What goes on between a wife and husband is a different issue than men and women being treated with a double standard.
I don’t think anyone can deny that women are generally on the short end of the stick when it comes to being victims of sexual harassment, sexual violence, etc. That fact can’t help but tinge my views on this subject. It’s reality. Have any of you women had a man pay a certain kind of attention to you, which may have been sincerely harmless from his point of view, but that felt threatening and scary for you? I certainly have.
Men and women are just not the same in the general social context.
Great thought-provoking stuff, Brillig!
Carla Stream: You read that correctly. I don’t have a problem with it. It’s a personal choice. Your husband choosing to avert his gaze because that is what he deems to be a higher standard (for his own moral or religious reasons)…that’s a personal choice, too. I realize I may be the minority in this particular forum, and that’s okay. If the “why is it a problem” was directed at me, then I would have to say that if it is not one for you or for him, then it’s certainly not one at all! Just like an appreciative comment regarding a member of the opposite sex is not a problem in my marriage and does not insult me. (Why would it? Him saying someone else is attractive or has a nice..whatever…does not automatically equal him saying I don’t measure up.) As I said in response to the previous post, the day he stops feeling free to speak openly is the day I worry that he’s got a reason to stay quiet.
So, aside from religious dictates that may guide a person’s actions, I would still ask why security or insecurity, or a sense of self-respect, should be tied so closely to what a spouse does or doesn’t notice in another person…back to the point that if he turns away, he’s already noticed. So the problem is with noticing. But why?
I think I’ll just say I agree with what you’ve written Brillig. I think its a mistake to drive too close to that cliff and ultimately just the fact that a person or persons are willing to take the risk undermines a relationship.
My wife is pretty forgiving of my appreciation of the beauty of the fairer sex… maybe I am a pig but for some reason she still loves me. Maybe it’s because it’s her that I want to come home to every night (although I wouldn’t mind if she brought a friend):) And yes… I can joke like that with her.
… pretty much comes down to treating others as you would want to be treated, doesn’t it? And respect. VERY important in a relationship.
I think you said it all very well!
I commented on the earlier post, because I am difficult that way..hehe.
I’ll not rip you, or anyone else to shreds.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and, bottom line–whatever works for a person and their spouse/significant other. To each, his own.
And just so she doesn’t feel like such a minority, I tend to agree with DangerDoll. That’s how we roll in my house.
(Oh no, the dreaded code box….say it ain’t so, spamming problem sweetie?)
I think you pulled out the most important bit Brillig.
‘Hurt.’ If you know you’re hurting someone you love then you need to stop.
I just commented on the other post too.
Wha4b4t a great debate.
Uh-huh, uh-huh,uh-huh! You’ve really got a discussion going here Brillig. And I am fascinated both by your take on it and the ensuing comments.
I never took the initial post to mean that you two had disagreed or were fighting in the least, that just doesn’t seem to be the way you and Hubby operate. Open discussion is what it is about in this marriage too and as I have discussed the matter with my man, I think we hit on the same point you did here. We are deeply respectful of each other’s feelings and even in playful banter such as Teri mentioned above, it’s all about knowing that deep beneath it all, we adore each other and trust each other implicitly. I feel lucky that I have that. I feel blessed to have him.
Great topic!
What matters is understanding…some may make it big issue… it must be a humorous conversation not like a debate or discussion … to say it simply… just follow you both…
I will share this with my Girl…
This is a non-issue in the Gunfighter household.
My biggest problem is double standards. Aside from my opinion that we aren’t qualified to discern what someone else’s line is, or what someone else’s intentions are. If you say someone is “hot” why is that more lustful? Hot is just a word, and it could mean many things to many people. If a guy words it as beautiful, or hot, why would that make a difference? If women don’t want their man to make comments about other women, they better keep their comments about other men to themselves is my main point. I really don’t care if one heats up quicker than the other, it could bother your guy just as much.
From a personal standpoint, if my guy said something about another woman, I would tend to think I don’t measure up, and I try to think of my guy like that too, If I’m oogling someones six pack, and my guy has a gut, won’t that hurt him and make him feel inadequate? It probably does but guys aren’t very good about verbalizing this or telling us we hurt them, so we have to assume it would hurt them as it does us and just refrain, as someone else said here, treat others as you want to be treated and there won’t be a problem.
Wow, you sure know how to stir up a discussion! Thanks for making me think!
Thank you to Nanette - I was sooooooo lonely!
My husband and I read this post and the comments last night. His reaction was that if I see him “notice” another woman’s…whatever…it’s really immaterial whether he says anything or not. “Well, once you see me ‘notice’, even if I say nothing and look away immediately…you’ve already seen my look and you know me well enough to know exactly what I was thinking!” I thought it was a good point. Then he went on and on about evolution and attraction and cavemen and whatever…I just tuned out. (Kidding!) He’s not familiar with Blogtropolis at all and wanted to see the blogs of the commenters, so off we went clickity click! He did point out that Carla’s blog has a “Hottest Mommyblogger” Blogger’s Choice Awards button. So I’m bringing that up…NOT to be disrespectful at all, but just out of curiosity…how is that okay, then? Sincerely…I’m curious. I’m not sure if it’s the audience or the discussion or what, but our marriage is obviously one of the minority and I would never have guessed that, so these different perspectives are fascinating!
Neither one of us is really into porn, so that’s not an issue for us. Our basic premise is that we have a long-term relationship with a future and we trust each other. BUT, we didn’t go blind or deaf or mute when we committed to each other and we’re still human. We don’t have a double standard; we share and we trust.
Good grief, Brill. You’re a brave lassie.
First of all…women cheat almost as much as men do.
Second of all, the double standard occurs because women and men think very differently and I think men kind of actually like to be objectified (almost like it gives them stud status). I used to think that men were equal in every way except physically. I was wrong. Men think, respond, act VERY differently from women. Take gossiping for instance. Men hardly do it– women love it. If you don’t see it, take a look at your own children. You’ll see how differently your sons learn from your daughters.
Thirdly, if you ask your husband not to voice his lust, it doesn’t mean he isn’t still doing it. It just means he’s doing it secretively. Would you rather have him lust secretively?
Men hardly gossip?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now THAT is funny!
You know who the biggest group of gossioing men are?
Cops.
Trust me on this.
He’s right.
@Gunfighter. You are right. I’m always amazed at the amount of gossip my husband brings home from an all male cop environment. I always say they are worse than a 13 yr old girl’s locker room!
Regarding the discussion: I’m pretty confident that my husband loves me. I do my best to keep him happy, behind the scenes.
But. Each Christmas I get him a Sports Illustrated Swim Suit calendar. Let’s be honest. Men are visual. I have no problem with that. But the line has never been crossed with us. He enjoys a beautiful woman, but at the end of the day he loves me.
This wouldn’t work for everyone, but is good for me.