Twas Brillig

Yup.  This again.  I’m writing the promised “follow-up” post to this.  I was amazed by the response I got, and I appreciate all of the comments.  It’s a hot topic, and it seems like everyone has strong opinions and feelings on the subject.  Hubby and I sat down and read all of the responses together–we laughed at some of your answers, we were intrigued by some of your answers, and we were impressed by all of your answers.  We learned a lot–not just about ourselves but about how other people’s relationships work!

I do, however, need to explain that Hubby and I were not fighting over this.  We weren’t even debating.  Some of you said that you were siding with me, or that you were siding with Hubby.  Well, there were no sides.  I should have made this more clear.  There were no hurt feelings.  This is important, because I am of the very strong opinion that if there were hurt feelings, it doesn’t matter what the possible explanation is, it has to stop.  Because it’s not okay to hurt the person you love.

Many of you responded by saying that women have had to go through a lot–things that men don’t have to go through–salaries, menstruation,the way we give birth, and the objectification of women and the double standards that we’ve been subjected to throughout history–so that means that we can pretty much say whatever we want to say.  I know that most of you who said things like that were kidding, but let’s address it anyway:

Women do go through a lot.  I have been through everything listed above, just like many of you have.  But how is this Hubby’s fault?  He is not the kind of man who does these things.  When I have gone through things like that (from childbirth to rotten bosses), Hubby has always been my champion.  He supports me, sustains me.  Saying hurtful things to my sweet, respectful, loving husband in order to get back at all of mankind and whoever designed my body seems, well, completely and totally unfair.

But let’s say it was his fault.  So let’s say I blame him.  I get even.  He says hurtful things, so I say hurtful things.  Wow.  What a happy marriage/life that makes for.  Surely there’s a higher road…

And, taking that even further, how does MY treating someone badly make up for having been treated badly?  I mean, if someone burns my house down, do I get to go burn a house down too?  Some would say, yes, and that it evens the playing field.  I say, it makes you BOTH arsonists, and you’ll BOTH go to jail. You’ve sold your liberty in order to get even, and now you’re every bit as lousy of a person as the person who wronged you was.

So, I guess that brings us to an important word:  the word “hurtful.”  As I’ve said, it’s never okay for me to say something hurtful, and it’s never okay for him to say something hurtful to me.  (Of course, from time to time we DO say hurtful things–generally on accident–and they need to be worked out.)

So I guess the big “double standard” question was really, WHY is it hurtful if a man says that and NOT hurtful if a woman does?  (And, of course, this is a huge generalization, because I suspect that very often women DO hurt their men with these very things without realizing how stupid they’re being.)

Carla brought up the word “lust” and I think it’s an important one.  If I say that a guy’s good looking, there’s no lust involved.  I wouldn’t say it if there were–I’d be way too uncomfortable.  But, in our case, if Hubby were to say that someone is “hot” there would be a definite sexual undertone.  Lust.  Objectification.  And that’s just not a line that we’re going to cross around here.

Crossing that sexual line is where, in our house, it would become hurtful.  Obviously women are VERY capable of lust too, but in general, if we say a guy’s good looking, there’s no lust there.  It’s just simply a statement about a guy being good looking.  We’re not all hot and bothered.  (If you are, again, I think a line’s been crossed.)  Since men seem to get to that “hot and bothered” point a little more… quickly… easily, and so for them to say, “oooh, she’s hot,” the wife gets the immediate impression that the “hot and bothered” line has already been crossed.

Again, generalizations, generalizations.  Women are very capable of lust.  Men are capable of acknowledging someone’s beauty without it being lust.  Still, because of history and society, we tend to think that a man is a pig and a woman is an innocent observer.  Fair?  Perhaps not.  But true.

The important thing here is that Hubby knows me.  He knows that if I say that a guy’s hot, I’m not saying it because I’m… um… aroused.

Many of you have said that in your relationships, you’re both okay with the drooling and the flirting and the… well… the lusting.  This boggles my brain.  You say that it’s because of a certain level of trust in your relationship.  This boggles my brain even more.  I don’t want to say too much, because I don’t want to say that you’re “wrong” and that you don’t really feel the way you claim to feel.  Suffice it to say, I don’t understand it.  There’s not one single soul on this planet that I trust more than I trust my husband.  There’s not one single soul I feel (or have ever felt) closer to.  Even so, or perhaps because, it would HURT me if he were to be drooling over anyone, watching porn, or even flirting at work.  He’s a good man, he has self control.  I value his self control.  I’m not saying that everyone who allows himself to lust after someone else is going to become unfaithful.  But I AM saying that someone who doesn’t allow himself to fall prey to lust will NEVER be unfaithful.  (That’s not to say that a marriage won’t disintegrate for other reasons, but it won’t disintegrate for THAT reason.)  Why skirt the line?  Why drive close to the edge of the cliff and hope not to fall off?  I prefer to drive far from the cliff, so that falling off isn’t an issue.  Anyway, point is, the mutual drooling is something I just. don’t. get.

I guess the important question is, again, am I being hurtful?  Or, am I being hurt?  Really, dig deep in your soul and find out.  Because that’s what matters.

Obviously, if he says that someone’s pretty, or attractive, or whatever, that’s different.  Of course he’s going to notice if a woman’s beautiful!  His eyes work.  And I like it when he says it.  I can also see when a woman’s beautiful!  I know that I’m not about to sleep with her, nor is he.  It’s just, again, when it become sexual or objectifying that it becomes hurtful.

Um, I think I’m saying the same thing over and over again, so I guess I’ll stop.  hahaha.   Also, for the record, I do not claim to be any sort of expert in this arena!  I’m just stating my own observations!

I’m very interested to see what you all have to say.  So, have at it, bloodhounds.  Rip me to shreds.
(Oh, and remember the “PG” rule, okay?)