Jul 05 2007
A Double Standard?
Yesterday, I told my husband about my friend Jenn in Holland who was missing home on the 4th of July and that she wouldn’t even be able to light the fireworks that she’d saved from New Year’s that night because it was raining. “So I told her to go see the hot guy who sells her cheese, and that would create fireworks for her.” I giggled. Hubby just stared at me.
Okay, not funny?
“Isn’t Jenn married?”
“Yes,” I answer.
We were then interrupted by little cherubs with big demands, but a few minutes later Hubby came back and said, “Do you think there’s a double standard? I mean, if two married guys had had that conversation, you would call them pigs. Why is it not equally wrong for two married girls to have that conversation?”
I acknowledged that the guys would be considered pigs. It’s one thing when Hubby acknowledges that a girl is “pretty.” That doesn’t bother me at all. But if he’d had a conversation about “creating fireworks” with some girl, it would have infuriated me.
He also pointed out to me that my girlfriends and I giggle about male celebrities, and hang pictures of them on our blog-walls, and talk about “drooling” over them, and so on. But again, if he were to put a picture of Pamela Anderson on his blog and talk about drooling, he would, again, be a pig.
True.
I offered him an explanation of why I thought there was this double standard, if you want to call it that. There really is a difference, I think. But before I tell you what I told him, I want to know how YOU, Gentle Readers, would respond.
So, is there a double standard? And if it is a double standard, is it justified or not? Lurkers, de-lurk today. I really want to know what everyone thinks of this. I’ll have a follow-up post in a few days.
Oh, and, um… this blog is rated PG. I know that this is a topic that could quickly turn… um… NOT PG. You KNOW I don’t like censorship, but I will have to edit things if they get out of hand so, um, don’t let them. Okay? Ready, set, GO!
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HA! I’m first!
I am of the opinion that I am going to drool over hot guys and guys are going to drool over hot girls. I’m OK with that, as long as it’s not out of hand. Matt doesn’t get in trouble for acknowledging the hotness of a celebrity unless the words hotter, skinnier, prettier with the sentence “than you” follows.
I’ve had this discussion many times with many of the girls who married Matt’s friends. They don’t agree with me. They think it’s horrible when their husband is caught drooling at other female’s or celebrities. And honestly, I get it. I understand the camp that gets upset by that.
I am just of the opinion that no matter what I do, they’re going to look, and most likely drool . . . so I might as well let them know it’s OK and get a little looking in myself
I think this way of approaching it doesn’t turn it into a double standard.
I, also, am very open to being wrong about this.
I’m kind of the same opinion as Kateastrophe. But honestly, I think part of it is the power dynamic. The objectification of a woman tends to bother me a bit more than the objectification of a man. But it definitely is a double standard.
Childbirth and “that time of the month”. These two things make it OK for us to do whatever we want, in my book. Standard, schmandard. Do you REMEMBER how your son came into this world?
Good point, LawyerMama… I agree.
In our relationship, The Man will never admit to ever thinking anyone over the age of seven is cute, pretty or otherwise. The furthest I take it is calling people “pretty decent looking” as in, “He’s a pretty decent looking guy, why can’t he get a date?”
We crack jokes about “Is that your other girlfriend” and stuff, but I actually take it pretty seriously. Maybe it’s low self esteem. Although, I didn’t care when other bf’s had celeb crushes before…maybe it’s just with The Man. Maybe it’s because I know that he spent years comparing me to another woman (scari). I dunno, but that’s us…we don’t “Do” celeb crushes.
I will admit to you, dear brillig, that I will flirt with people, too. Not totally, like “Let’s go back you your place” or anything remotely close - but I do offer smiles to particularily cute guys and I would be imprisoned for murder if I found out he was doing the same thing. Double standard? Oh, yeah.
I tried to comment earlier - then my daughter decided that was a good time to write all over her legs with a marker!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So needless to say I was distracted.
I’m with Kate - in so far as it is to do with celebrities - the ‘out there’ ‘untouchable’ kind of thing. If my husband were to start commenting on real life people, I think I’d get a bit more uncomfortable with it, and I don’t comment to him about real life people - but maybe that’s because my neighbours are mostly geriatrics and I wouldn’t have many hot men to drool over in this area lol!
I’m with LawyerMama with regard to there being a double standard and why. However, in my own relationship, we’re both OK with the ogling and commenting as long as there are no “-er” words involved. You know, like hotter or prettier or better.
I’m in a very lucky position in that neither of us is at all the “jealous” type.
I’m a flirt. He knew that when we met, hell, it’s one of the reasons we’re married. I will never NOT be a flirt, such is life. He isn’t, but I really don’t think it would bother me if he was. I think I would drop dead from shock if he ever actually flirted with someone- it would be so out of character.
I tell him all the time about my celebrity boyfriends, he sometimes jokes about his “girlfriends”.
I think, for us, we tend to comment more openly and graphically
about people we aren’t friends/relatives/close acquaintances with. I think that keeps it more “above board”, though when it’s just me and the girls all bets are off.
I definitely think there is a double standard. Men are pigs like you said if they make such comments about women like we do.
I wouldn’t care if DH said someone was “attractive”, BUT I would definitely be a bit ticked if he said someone was “hot”. Not sure what the difference is..it is in my head. Maybe the word hot seems more like someone you want to do sexual things with and attractive is just that…attractive.
I am rambling….
Hmmm. {thoughtfully taps chin}
I’m not sure about the reason for the double-standard in some relationships (but I’m intrigued…waiting to see the comments!). Neither of us has a jealous bone and there’s an immense amount of trust, and so we’re VERY open. We each look and notice and occasionally comment, and it’s all open. The discussion we had early on - a decade ago, holy cow - hinged on the type of look you’re giving. There is a difference between the appreciative “yes, I see you, and you are quite the hottie” look and the cartoon leer…you know, eyeballs popping out, tongue unrolling across the floor, steam billowing from ears. We each know that to do that in front of the other would be disrespectful. So I guess that’s the line. Apart and out with friends, though…it’s cartoon leer all the way. I do it, and I know he does it, and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Nobody’s going home with anyone else, and it’s all in good fun!
We actually tease each other all the time with stuff like, “No, I’m not the one who is allergic to penicillin…you must be thinking of your girlfriend,” and, “I’m coming home from work early today…thought I’d let you know so you can tell Andre to leave. And if he’s going to keep coming over to service you, have him mow the lawn or something, huh?”
Sort of like Whiskeymarie, we were both flirts before we married. Actually, if he stopped pointing out attractive women, THEN I’d worry. I’d wonder what he was hiding. Right now, things are so open that any effort to hide something would be noticed in a hurry!
Jeez that was LONG! Apologies!
Is it maybe a bit more acceptable for women to make those comments since typically it’s the man who’s the player or cheater? I KNOW that women are perfectly capable of cheating/playing too, but I think it’s more often the man that acts on the oogling…
I could be very wrong about this, but this was just my first thoughts on the subject… I’ll look forward to Brillig’s theory! =)
There is a double standard. I’m with Kate and LawyerMama.
I know P has a thing for Angelina Jolie. He knows I have a thing for, um, several handsome celebrities.
But I will often acknowledge that a woman looks ravishing, and P is secure enough in his monogamy, heterosexuality, and hotness-in-my-eyes to admit that Brad Pitt is aesthetically pleasing (I believe his exact quote was, “I’d even date him.”)
But we keep it to celebrities; somehow if it’s someone in the community, we try to keep our eyes where they belong.
It’s because traditionally speaking, men have a problem with thinking of women as sex objects and treating them that way, and women don’t traditionally speaking have the same problem.
The double standard was on the other side for years — no, centuries. You could simply tell husband that our making jokes of this type is like affirmative action: it makes up for lost time and past discrimination. (Oh, was there a picture of the hot guy at the market?)
I love reading others viewpoints on the subject.
I’m positively ok with hubby commenting and appreciating other womens beauty. Hell, I do it too. As long as it’s done tastefully and not objectifying a woman than I have no problem with it.
The same goes for me, I comment on males (typically celebrities or other figures in the media) and hubby doesn’t mind it.
I absolutely agree with Lawyer Mama. Its a double standard absolutely but the objectification of women in the media is so much worse than men.
What a provocative question! I guess I have to agree with those who don’t mind the noticing as long as it doesn’t come with unfortunate comparative remarks (Jami’s “-er” words). For the record, M. has been remarkably tolerant of my drooling fascination with Antonio Banderas…
I think context is everything. I don’t even look at other men with THAT in mind. Not because I’m a saint, but because THAT usually is bound to strong feelings of being in love with the object of my admiration. Culture tells us, over and over, that men can separate love and sex, so maybe this is why their ogling tends to be seen as more offensive and threatening than women’s ogling. All of this is pure conjecture on my part, since I seriously don’t ogle, and my husband doesn’t either (at least not out loud). He says he feels uncomfortable and annoyed when his co-workers or friends do. Says they look like dirty old men!
I am not sure it is a double standard but the way it is said and who is saying it. If I said the same thing to my sister she would just giggle and laugh. If someone who knew me overheard me saying the same thing you said they would know it was only a joke.
Now, if I over heard a Man I do not know well saying something very similar to what you said I would think he was being a pig.
In my view it depends on who is saying it, how well they are known by the people who hear them say it. If you know the person saying it, you know if they are kidding or not. If you do not know him/her, most people are ready to think the worst case scenario first.
Here is another point. It is ok if I call my little sister a ______ but it is not ok for someone who does not know her to call her that. Just like I would not call a perfect stranger a _______. If I did it could mean a trip to the emergency room. This again is all how people react to others they know or do not know. Does that make any sense?
lene - you’re really onto something - not rambling!
What I read from your comment is that it’s the “intent” of the remark - not so much the fact that the remark was made. And I agree that for me, there would be a huge difference between labeling someone as “attractive” and “Hot” - there is definitely an intent to the second one that says “If I had the opportunity…” Which, I know is saying more of what other people are saying on why it’s okay to crush on celebs - this just hits at more of a personal level for me. I would be okay with The Man saying someone was “attractive” - though he still wouldn’t.
Now I’M rambling…but I totally get what you mean!
And also, (since I’m on a roll) - the “power by objectification(?)” thing people are talking about - I think that’s why I think it’s okay for me to flirt. Because, really, if I’m sweet to someone, I really get something out of it - the door held open or a little extra room to change lanes. I do it with the intent of getting something for me, not creating a relationship - whereas if he were to flirt (which, like WhM’s man - would be TOTALLY out of character), it would very much seem to be for different reasons. Though, I know he’s nicer to certain people (like the ladies at Subway) to get what he wants.
Whew! All that blathering and I’ve finally convinced myself it’s okay to continue my ways. (I was worried about it, really.)
My husband and I have had very similar discussions over the years.
Once a friend of mine was here and our conversation was meandering around, and eventually it got around to exes. My husband was in the room, and as exes are not an issue for us (we are actually very good friends with a couple of my ex-boyfriends, and his ex-girlfriends) I didn’t censor myself. But I stepped over the line when I…well, in the interest of remaining PG I’ll just say I was a bit crude. And graphic. BUT FUNNY!
He looked at me and said, “I can’t believe you just said that. Let alone in front of me. I would never say something like that.” And he’s right…if he had made a similar (reciprocal) remark I would have been horrified.
We’ve discussed it a bit, I’ve dissected the issue with my friends who also have been accused of making remarks more outrageous than we’d be comfortable with our husbands doing. For us it comes down to humor and its context. Your fireworks comment was funny, but f a guy made it, it would most likely come off as gross and letchy.
Another example…even though I like to think I am pretty funny (IRL at least!), I couldn’t carry off Chris Rock’s stand-up routine.
YIKES! Can you take my last name off my last comment, please? Thanks!!!
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You got it! I hate it when I do stuff like that! I love WordPress for letting me edit comments…
Oh yeah, there’s a double standard.
Maybe I should care, but I don’t!! Too bad guys!
There is TOTALLY a double standard and it bothers me. I hate women who bash men (just as I would hate men who think women are inferior) and married men who ogle other women. It’s a fairness thing.
However, I still participate in the whole “Oh, he’s so cute” thing, to a small degree. Hubby and I now wink and say, “Some people would say ____ is attractive” and that keeps us both honest.
i don’t think i have much to add here (brilliance abounds), but i wonder also if it isn’t the fact that women don’t respond to visual stimuli like men do. for men…a hot girl is all it takes. stop me if i’m wrong here, ladies, but for me it takes A LOT more. hot is nice, but “hot” becomes much different for me when i’m talking about the men in my life. they must be kind, funny, a little bit nerdy…and so all of the sudden the term gets redefined.
so, a man in my life need not worry if i think colin firth is dreamy. it’s all hypothetical. the thing that rings my chimes is what’s real.
just a thought, although this is definitely not an area i’m an expert in.
My opinion: yes, it’s a double standard and yes, it’s wrong. I agree with your husband on this. Personally, I try really, really hard to not say things about my husband/marriage that would infuriate me if my husband were saying them about me/us. I don’t know if women (in general) feel justified in behaving this way because of being oppressed or being liberated. Who knows? I believe that if women truly want the equal footing with men that we deserve then we must behave apporpriately as well. My 2 cents, for what it’s worth.
btw…like your new site…had a feeling you’d be pulled in by the lure of the Wordpress vortex
I think flirting is fine as long as there’s nothing behind it. But it’s very, very easy for it to go one little step more……and then you’re in trouble.
I think there’s a double standard, definitely, and I don’t like it. But I think it partially comes from the fact that men are more known to act on their inclinations, whereas women are usually content to giggle and sigh.
Neil and I have no problem saying some gal or guy is attractive, but we don’t go into details, or make comparisons. And Neil knows when such things should not be mentioned at all. =P
There is a double-standard. The man sees it as something they might actually act on (primal instinct to scatter seed and all), and the woman sees it as fuel for her mental fantasies, not something she would actually pursue.
If she acts on it — she’s a HO, according to society. If he acts on it — he’s just doing what comes naturally.
There is a double standard indeed - but we are women - and therefore SUPERIOR and therefore able to keep our fantasies as just that - fantasies.
Seriously though, I think that there is a bit of a double standard - but just like Shuey said - I think women are conscious that our fantasies are safe…whereas, because of the inherently more sexual nature of men (usually - I know this is a generalisation and not always the case) we are perhaps a little less ’secure’ regarding men and their fantasies.
As for me and my house it is considered lust. I try not to even speak that way about other men and my husband doesn’t about women. I have 3 boys to grow into men who respect women. I personally would feel insulted if my husband told me about someone he thought was attractive. Ew. I am feeling a little lonely out here with this comment. :O
How the hell did you get 30 comments?
Anyway, as long as the other people know you’re joking, I think it’s ok, either gender. Men are just more likely to act on these things.
I think there IS a double standard and it exists because women feel the need to rub it in the face of the guys a little bit - to make up for the years that it was something the guys did - regardless of how we women felt about it.
So there! So-to-speak.
Having said that - I think it totally varies from person to person, relationship to relationship. My own personal feeling would be that since I don’t like it very much when he does it - I don’t do it in front of him.
What I say to my girlfriends in private is just that - private.
Oh I forgot, sorry. As far as men being more willing to act on their fantasies - have you ever been in a room with a bunch of women and a couple of male dancers? I was put in that situation against my will I might add, a million years ago. And those women were more animalistic and grabby with those guys - than any guy would DARE to be at a strip club or something. Now THERE is a double standard for you! Men would be afraid to grope the women like that - but these women were - embarrassing!!
I think we deserve the right to a double standard. Aren’t we the ones that sqeeze a baby out of that itty bitty hole? Aren’t we the ones that get periods once a month? Don’t we feed our babies with our milk? Don’t we suffer through incontinence because we squeeze out babies. What the heck does than man do except drop off some sperm in our receptacles? I rest my case.
WHOA! Over 30 responses?? I honestly don’t even know if you’ll get my response, but I shall respond anyway! First of all, if any man puts Pamela Anderson on his wall and starts to drool, he IS a pig. Yuck. I love my husband more than anything on this planet. That, however, does not make me blind or oblivious to the other dashing gents that roam the Earth. Do I find other men attractive? Yes. Do I find some of them sexy? Yes. My sister and I call each other sometimes and laugh - saying things like, “Dude..the cute boys are out today!”. I know that Cody finds other women attractive - I would be an idiot to think he didn’t. I don’t know that I would go as far to say that it’s a double standard. I mean, if we are talking about looking at another guy and thinking, “Um, hi there you dreamboat”, shouldn’t we also bring up the fact that ‘role-playing’ has become pretty common in the bedroom? Is that a double standard as well, pretending to be someone else?
I guess what it boils down to (for me) is that I don’t see any harm in thinking that someone else is attractive or getting a little flutter when a handsome man notices you. Can it get out of hand? You bet. I know that innocent actions can be totally inappropriate and can lead to problems in a marriage. Cody is the perfect man for me and he has told me that he can’t live without me - to be threatened by a celebrity that he simply thinks is “pretty’ would not be worth my time. I just don’t think it’s important to stress over stuff like that. At the end of the day, we have each other and that is more than we could ever want!
Yes, there is a double standard, because when you put a defective X-chromosome (man) in a room with the naked and willing object of his attraction, he will respond and many instances (generalization here) act. Whereas a woman will react with (another generalization here) embarrassment and discomfort and be unable and unwilling to act (Is this PG enough Brill?), no matter how she has talked and bragged and drooled before. If a woman’s relationship with a man is such that she has no fear about how he would react in a room with someone he could potentially be attracted to, then she will have much less reason for concern about any comments he might make. My German husband has a saying that doesn’t really translate well, but the meaning should be clear : “It doesn’t matter where you get your appetite, YOU WILL EAT AT HOME!” My comfort level is such that I almost wish he would drool over someone so I could get a better idea on how to make “improvements”.
Great topic Brill! I’ll be de-lurking more often!
Um, wow? With all the comments.
Maybe there is a double standard. Personally I don’t really comment on hot guys much at all, because well…that’s not really what I care about. I’m not a visual stimulation sort of girl when it comes to attraction. I permit the boyfriend to look at my Victoria’s Secret catalog and read Maxim magazines. He is smart enough and tasteful enough to recognize when a woman looks good and when she looks trashy. It doesn’t hurt that he frequently reminds me of my hotness.
I guess as long as the relationship is secure, and like Des said, you are joking, it’s not that big of a deal to me.
Great post!
What about the double standard that pays women less than their male counterparts? Or the one that questions the rape victim’s choice in clothing and sexual history? Why are women who have multiple sex partners considerd whores and men are high fived? Those are double standards.
I think we’re just making up for lost time!
i have not a problem with a double standards as long as women are still making 7 cents (usd) to the dollar compared to men. I think drooling and giggling are the least we should get..
I think there is a double standard. I hadn’t thought about it quite that way before. There is definitely acceptance of women looking at men, but not men looking at women. I think it has something to do with the overlying sense that women are more pure than men. As time goes by though, I think that line is getting blurred and there are some women who are just as sleazy as some men can be.
Brillig, watch me get these comments to 100 in a hurry {wink}:
Many of the commenters are pointing out as generalizations (and, in fairness, labeling them as such) that men are visual creatures, which is scientifically true, and are also more likely to act on their impulses. That is, they see an attractive member of the opposite sex, and do not have enough self-control to hold themselves back..and that men are the majority of the cheaters. I strongly disagree with this idea, even as a generalization. Each affair requires two people. What does happen, though, is that if a man has an affair (acts on his “OMG she’s hot” impulse), it is seen as something that fills a largely sexual need….and he’s a dog. If a woman has an affair, it is seen as something she’s doing to fill an emotional void…and it’s easier for society to forgive. This, to me, is almost a form of reverse-sexism.
I do not mean to be disrespectful at all, and I’m thoroughly enjoying the ideas floating around this post! So if y’all throw things at me, please make sure they’re soft.
I’ll have to come back later to read all of the comments.
Anyway….I think that people are unrealistic in their expectations. Do we suddenly become blind when we are married? Why do we bother to dress up, etc? Offered up in example–Elizabeth Hasselbeck on the View–she feels that her husband should not even look at other women. Um, hello? And then she wears the most cut down to there–look at me–clothing possible to accentuate her breasts–if you don’t want your husband to look at other women, shouldn’t you dress a little more responsibly yourself so other men aren’t tempted to ogle you? /end rant
Double standard…yes, if you are not going to allow your spouse the same latitude in their comments that you allow yourself. It should be about trust, not do as I say–not as I do.
I don’t have time to read the comments, as my baby is waking up, so at the risk of repeating everyone else’s comments, I’ll chime in anyway.
I think it IS a double standard, but a fairly reasonable one. Double standard because we want to do it, but don’t want it done to us. But reasonable because visual attraction IS different for women than for men. We wouldn’t feel comfortable talking about how a hot male celeb sat and listened to us for hours and understood us like no one else.
Oh, by the way…I recently found a place where you can actually get a rating on your blog…and mine scored PG13!!!
I have to admit that I have been guilty of this in the past. I don’t have a problem with my hubby admiring some stranger on TV, magazine etc but if some hot chick was walking in front of us and he was drooling I WOULD slap him silly..lol. That being said, there have been times when we have been out together and I have said “omg look at the butt on that guy”… Now he knows where “my bread is buttered” and I regularly tell him how much I love his butt too…so it doesn’t bug him….but if he said the same thing, I would surely NOT be impressed. I know this is a double standard and I KNOW it is wrong of me but it has happened. I do try to be respectful of it now and control myself.
I have fireworks with the damn treadmill. If my husband was able to get his rocks off by accident on a treadmill I’d never allow him to run again. I think sexuality comes so much easier to men that it cheapens it when they talk about it. For us women it’s so much more emotional that when we make a slight joke it really is a joke with no background because we are so emotionally attached to sexuality.
There is not a whole lot to add to the discussion as it has been covered well in the comments, but since I was the source for this consternation and conversation I felt I had to weigh in at least little.
But really only to echo others words. Like Rebecca saying that women are SUPERIOR? Oh, yeah I will totally go with that. And in honesty Fourier’s comments are dead on, as is her husband’s german wisdom. That’s what keeps it working here, and what makes us unafraid that a “fireworks” comment means a thing.
I think it is a big double standard. But God made women more touch oriented than guys who are typically sight-oriented.
I hear from many people it’s okay to look, because it’s human. I agree, it is human, but I personally disagree that it is okay. (die flesh, DIE!!…Brillig, you understand what I mean..)
I take it like, why plunk yourself in a Krispy Kreme or even a See’s Candies when you are on a diet. The seeds you mentally plant in your head are what will grow in your heart. Rather like the foodie saying, “You are what you eat.”
Mr. Coffee and I have been married for 14 years and we never ‘play fight’ or joke about divorce either. I certainly don’t want to plant ideas in Mr. Coffee’s head, because you end up wondering honestly if you really do mean it.
That’s my two cents, I know other’s disagree, but that’s opinions for you.
I definitely get why this could be viewed as a double standard, and it’s certainly made me think that I might say things in front of my other half that he may not be totally comfortable with, but I think he knows I’m just messing around.
I think it’s all down to content and intent.
Mr B and I often comment on how attractive someone is, but generally only with the untouchable celebrity.
If he said to me”Your friend____________is absolutely gorgeous” I might feel a bit insecure, and if he said something more graphic I’d probably have to microwave his shoes.
I think when we say stuff it’s generally cheeky which is ok, like giggling married sisters and friends, but if it’s more graphic and it comes from a man it often seems more predatory.
Maybe this is because men are less likely to become a victim of sexual crime at the hands of a woman. I promise I don’t mean all men are potential rapists, I disagree with this completely.
It’s like saying everyone is a potential serial killer. Potential is only there through a set of unique circumstances that most of us will never experience.
But there is still maybe an implied threat that is not there with women.
History has painted a picture of men as bigger, stronger and more sexually agressive and this colours our opinions and judgements.
Thanks for such a great post Brillig, it certainly got me thinking.
My girl friends straight away gets ready to shoot…even if I joke…and if she does then just a smile and says she was joking…
Well I think its double standard… AbsolutelyBananas is right…it’s depends on time..
the view’s elizabeth hasselbeck
Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Elisabeth Hasselbeck.